Hi All,

I have been looking for my first aircraft, and I came across one that looked
promising, except that it is registered outside the U.S.

Is this something that I should completely avoid?

How do you go about getting it registered in the U.S.?

Are there certain countries that are better than others (ie. a drug cartel
plane from Columbia vs. a plane from Canada)?

The plane is in Portugal. The seller is paying for freight.

Should I investigate or run the other way?

Thanks,

Adam

You may check the archives, but I think the amount of scariness factor is
pretty high. One definite - They bring the plane here BEFORE you pay, and it
is subject to inspection.

Also, you can't likely borrow money on the plane until after it has an N
number.

You will want someone with a GREAT reputation to go through the logs and do
the inspection. Your seller has got to understand that some repairs he made
over seas may have to be redone due to improper log entries or records.
Also, someone with good experience will likely be needed to even get the N
number.

Other ugly stuff could be in this deal as well depending on the type of
plane. I am assuming since this is your first that this is a popular model?
Rare planes have rare parts, and can make ownership interesting.

So, in the end, why this particular plane? The euro is high, so I find it
hard to believe this is a great deal for the seller.




"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All,
>
> I have been looking for my first aircraft, and I came across one that
looked
> promising, except that it is registered outside the U.S.
>
> Is this something that I should completely avoid?
>
> How do you go about getting it registered in the U.S.?
>
> Are there certain countries that are better than others (ie. a drug cartel
> plane from Columbia vs. a plane from Canada)?
>
> The plane is in Portugal. The seller is paying for freight.
>
> Should I investigate or run the other way?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
>
>

>
> How do you go about getting it registered in the U.S.?

Assuming the aircraft is a US manufactured plane with a type certificate.

First the aircraft is "deregistered" by the governing authority of its
country of origin.

Next the US buyer presents evidence of this deregistration, a bill of sale,
and applies for a US registration.

Now the buyer contacts a Designated Airworthiness Representative, or his
local FSDO and arranges for a type certificate conformity inspection.

An annual inspection must be completed within 30 days of the conformity
inspection.


Sounds easy huh???

Looks like a weld on the engine mount no 337 huh---- Is that air box
original to the airplane?? I don't see any numbers--prove that it conforms
to the TC. What kind of a log entry is that for those ADs? it doesn't
conform to our regulations, do all the ADs over again
What is that sooper--dooper auto pilot doing on this aircraft??? field
approval or yank it out.

It can be painless or terribly painful I've seen both ways.

I've got one sitting behind my garage with the wings pulled. Registration
was completed, corrosion on the spar cap discovered during the inspection
process---The owner will perhaps part it out---

Another from Canada cost almost as much as the purchase price to certify.
The owner could have had a flying plane in half the time for half the money
by buying US.

Cheers:

Paul

Paul Anton wrote:

>>How do you go about getting it registered in the U.S.?
>
>
> Assuming the aircraft is a US manufactured plane with a type certificate.
>
> First the aircraft is "deregistered" by the governing authority of its
> country of origin.
>
> Next the US buyer presents evidence of this deregistration, a bill of sale,
> and applies for a US registration.
>
> Now the buyer contacts a Designated Airworthiness Representative, or his
> local FSDO and arranges for a type certificate conformity inspection.
>
> An annual inspection must be completed within 30 days of the conformity
> inspection.
>
>
> Sounds easy huh???
>
> Looks like a weld on the engine mount no 337 huh---- Is that air box
> original to the airplane?? I don't see any numbers--prove that it conforms
> to the TC. What kind of a log entry is that for those ADs? it doesn't
> conform to our regulations, do all the ADs over again
> What is that sooper--dooper auto pilot doing on this aircraft??? field
> approval or yank it out.
>
> It can be painless or terribly painful I've seen both ways.
>
> I've got one sitting behind my garage with the wings pulled. Registration
> was completed, corrosion on the spar cap discovered during the inspection
> process---The owner will perhaps part it out---
>
> Another from Canada cost almost as much as the purchase price to certify.
> The owner could have had a flying plane in half the time for half the money
> by buying US.
>

Why bother registering it here/ Can't he own and fly a
foreign-registered aircraft here? AFter all, plenty of n-number planes
are based in and flying around europe, I recall there was a discussion
of that in this newsgroup several months ago.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&threadm=bh6mqu%243av%241%40news.service.uci.edu&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dus%2Bregistered%2Bairplane%2Beurope%2 6hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26selm%3Dbh6mqu%25243av%25241%2540n ews.service.uci.edu%26rnum%3D1

or

http://tinyurl.com/2xntl

Why couldn't the same thing be done in reverse? OK, it may be
prohibitively expensive or annoying, but still....

>>
So, in the end, why this particular plane? The euro is high, so I find it
hard to believe this is a great deal for the seller.
<<

Its a 172 Hawk XP 500SMOH 3000TT for $12K.
I've been looking at older 172's for $30K.
If it really is as advertised. I couldn't afford an XP any other way!

"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> So, in the end, why this particular plane? The euro is high, so I find
it
> hard to believe this is a great deal for the seller.
> <<
>
> Its a 172 Hawk XP 500SMOH 3000TT for $12K.
> I've been looking at older 172's for $30K.
> If it really is as advertised. I couldn't afford an XP any other way!
>



If you cannot afford a Hawk any other way, you likely cannot afford this
Hawk. The list of things that can go wrong can quickly add up over the 20k
savings. You really cannot afford the risk that comes with trying to save
the money. Leave this kind of deal to an A&P or shady broker with a cousin
at the FSDO..

IMO you would be better off borrowing the money for a Hawk of more known
value, or reexamining if you really need a Hawk. Assuming you want the Hawk
for short field work, perhaps you could buy a used homebuilt that would fit
the bill.

Also, remember that a 172 is really a much more expensive plane. You are
buying old to save costs, but the parts still costs the same (you just need
more of them). Buying a 30k old plane can easily mean another 10k to keep it
flying safely!

Perhaps you should look into a really nice 152, or cherokee 140? Get a
partner?

In article >, TTA Cherokee Driver wrote:
>
> Why bother registering it here/ Can't he own and fly a
> foreign-registered aircraft here? AFter all, plenty of n-number planes
> are based in and flying around europe, I recall there was a discussion
> of that in this newsgroup several months ago.

The reason it's done quite a lot in Europe is many people go to the US
for their pilot certificates. If you have a US certificate, you can fly
an N numbered plane anywhere. Because FAA certificates are quite common,
and because many people don't want to go through the hassle of getting a
JAR instrument rating, so are N numbered planes. Therefore, the support
(FAA mechanics and AIs) are also available.

Going the other way, virtually no one in the US has a JAA license and
virtually no mechanics will be able to work on a Portugese registered
aircraft. Therefore you can't get it maintained. You can't fly it on
your FAA certificate. If you have a JAA certificate you can only fly it
till annual comes up, at which point you'll need a JAA mechanic to work
on it, and you won't be able to find one.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

>>
If you cannot afford a Hawk any other way, you likely cannot afford this
Hawk. The list of things that can go wrong can quickly add up over the 20k
savings. You really cannot afford the risk that comes with trying to save
the money. Leave this kind of deal to an A&P or shady broker with a cousin
at the FSDO..
<<

I'm starting to realize that just getting it registered could involve a bit
of work.
Your probably right here.

>>
IMO you would be better off borrowing the money for a Hawk of more known
value, or reexamining if you really need a Hawk. Assuming you want the Hawk
for short field work, perhaps you could buy a used homebuilt that would fit
the bill.

Also, remember that a 172 is really a much more expensive plane. You are
buying old to save costs, but the parts still costs the same (you just need
more of them). Buying a 30k old plane can easily mean another 10k to keep it
flying safely!

Perhaps you should look into a really nice 152, or cherokee 140? Get a
partner?
<<

I fly out of MEV, which is at 4700 MSL.
In the summer the density altitude can be much higher, and it is surrounded
by mountains.
I would really like the extra horsepower.

A 152 probably wouldn't fit my needs. A 140 (maybe with the 160 conversion)
would be better.
I've also been looking at a Musketeer. It needs radios, but it has 5 SMOH
on the IO-346.
Any opinions about this bird?

Thanks,

Adam

"The Weiss Family" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> If you cannot afford a Hawk any other way, you likely cannot afford this
> Hawk. The list of things that can go wrong can quickly add up over the
20k
> savings. You really cannot afford the risk that comes with trying to save
> the money. Leave this kind of deal to an A&P or shady broker with a
cousin
> at the FSDO..
> <<
>
> I'm starting to realize that just getting it registered could involve a
bit
> of work.
> Your probably right here.
>
> >>
> IMO you would be better off borrowing the money for a Hawk of more known
> value, or reexamining if you really need a Hawk. Assuming you want the
Hawk
> for short field work, perhaps you could buy a used homebuilt that would
fit
> the bill.
>
> Also, remember that a 172 is really a much more expensive plane. You are
> buying old to save costs, but the parts still costs the same (you just
need
> more of them). Buying a 30k old plane can easily mean another 10k to keep
it
> flying safely!
>
> Perhaps you should look into a really nice 152, or cherokee 140? Get a
> partner?
> <<
>
> I fly out of MEV, which is at 4700 MSL.
> In the summer the density altitude can be much higher, and it is
surrounded
> by mountains.
> I would really like the extra horsepower.
>
> A 152 probably wouldn't fit my needs. A 140 (maybe with the 160
conversion)
> would be better.
> I've also been looking at a Musketeer. It needs radios, but it has 5 SMOH
> on the IO-346.
> Any opinions about this bird?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Adam
>

Aha, I forgot the other reason for the extra hp.

No opinion about that plane in particular but you have managed to jump right
into another ugly territory: "The For Sale Overhaul"

You will want to double triple check that the shop doing the overhaul is of
the FINEST reputation. Unfortunately, the best way to do this is asking
FBO's and aviation shops that may see him as a competitor. It is common for
people to have an overhaul done as cheaply as possible before selling a
plane. They do this because there are more people willing to buy the plane
that way than to buy the runout plane, and because the Blue Book value of a
low time engine can easily be higher than the cost of overhauling cheaply.

Other than that, the Musketeer is a Beech, so the parts costs can be a
Beetch. I am not sure if it has been orphaned, or how easy it is to find
parts. By reputation the only downside to a Musketeer seems to be it is a
bit slow, which is likely due to the roominess. A fair trade in my opinion.

If you have a local EAA chapter, you should seriously consider going to a
meeting. EAA folks not only do the homebuilt thing. An EAA chapter can be
your best source of info for how to fly cheaply, even in certified planes.

In article >, The Weiss Family wrote:
> I've also been looking at a Musketeer. It needs radios, but it has 5 SMOH
> on the IO-346.

The IO-346 is an orphaned engine, and since you were looking at a Hawk
XP due to density altitude issues, you'll have the same climb problem
with a IO-346 engined Mouse as you would with a regular C172. The
Musketeer to look for is actually called a Sundowner, and has a 180hp
engine which isn't orphaned. There's also the 200hp Super Musketeer, but
these are a bit hard to find.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

The Sundowner is not exactly a sprightly climber either. Great airplane, solid
and lots of room. Just slower than a 172/archer and not quite the same climb
rate.

Dylan Smith wrote:

> In article >, The Weiss Family wrote:
> > I've also been looking at a Musketeer. It needs radios, but it has 5 SMOH
> > on the IO-346.
>
> The IO-346 is an orphaned engine, and since you were looking at a Hawk
> XP due to density altitude issues, you'll have the same climb problem
> with a IO-346 engined Mouse as you would with a regular C172. The
> Musketeer to look for is actually called a Sundowner, and has a 180hp
> engine which isn't orphaned. There's also the 200hp Super Musketeer, but
> these are a bit hard to find.
>
> --
> Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
> Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
> Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
> "Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

--
--Ray Andraka, P.E.
President, the Andraka Consulting Group, Inc.
401/884-7930 Fax 401/884-7950
email
http://www.andraka.com

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, 1759